Cold Storage Development 2.0 with Matt Anderson


Justin welcomes Matt Anderson, Vice President of Development at Cold Summit Development. Matt delves into cold storage and what it takes to get entitlements and a project approved, but also what makes their project better than what’s existing.

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  • Matt Anderson’s background in construction management & real estate development – 2:00
  • Joining Cold Summit Development – 5:30
  •  How they decide which markets to target – 8:00
  • Delivering multi-tenant fully spec refrigerated warehouses – 11:10
  • Tenant profile: manufacturers, distributors, last mile delivery – 14:00
  • Sites available for lease in Dallas, Phoenix, Chicago – 17:20
  • Lease rates for cold storage buildings – 19:55
  • Integrated a building management system to improve tenant’s efficiency – 22:00
  • Capital markets interest in cold storage – 24:50
  • Land sites requirements – 27:15


Episode Resources

Connect with Matt Anderson

Connect with Justin Smith


Justin Smith: Hi, it’s Justin Smith. Welcome to the Industrial Insights Podcast. I want to welcome you to this episode with Matt Anderson at Cold Summit Development. Cold Summit is the premier cold storage. developer across the country of brand new Class A refrigerated product. And so we talk about developments that he has active all across the country in Arizona, Texas and Illinois, and a few that are on the horizon. And so we delve into cold storage and what it takes to get entitlements and a project approved, but also what makes their project better than what’s existing. And it is an amazing thing to see how this asset class has progressed. I hope you’ll really enjoy this episode and learn a lot from it. Thank you.

Matt Anderson: I got connected with you. I forget what it was, I think it was your book or something that you had posted on about a year ago. And I ended up buying the book and I read the book. I thought it was great and loved what you were doing. Kind of just reaching your network and trying to connect with other industry folks. And then, you had Jay on from Scannell I think a few months ago, with the supply chain guru Jason Miller. Yeah, that was really interesting. I love following him. He’s got some great insights and I’m really glad you reached out. I would love nothing more than to talk to you about cold storage and what we’re up to. It’s great to meet you too, and hopefully we can find something to work on together down in LA.

Justin Smith: Totally. Yeah, we got to explore that a little further because the LA and cold storage. We’ve got Vernon and then we have little pieces here and there. Then we have this big dream of there’s gonna be cold storage everywhere. And then every time I track projects, they’re not there. They’re in Dallas and they’re in Arizona, and they’re in Chicago and they’re in other areas. But seems like Southern California for probably a myriad of different reasons can be pretty challenging to set up shop and have a pretty sizable project.

Matt Anderson: Yeah, but it doesn’t stray away from the fact that if you can tee one up. If you can get the space and the height and the approvals people will lease it. Getting all those pieces together is the tricky part.

Justin Smith: Yeah, just a few small pieces. You were at Scannell before Cold Summit, it seems the majority of your background is construction heavy. What were you doing with Scannell before here?

Matt Anderson: Yeah, I grew up just loving construction, building things, creating something. I went to school for architecture before my senior in high school and just realized I wasn’t an architect. And engineering was interesting, but I didn’t really feel a pull to it. And construction management was that kind of blend in between. And it led me down a great career of really managing top-notch projects, here in the Bay Area, San Jose, San Francisco, for about five years. And then eventually I wanted to kind of transition into investor management, development, strategic decision making. And for me at the time, it was diagonally into Jamestown as an in-house construction manager and loved that role. Progressed through learning entitlement, learning permitting and design.

Justin Smith: What kind of projects?

Matt Anderson: It was mostly retail, restaurants, commercial office space. Really trying to invigorate underutilized spaces in key markets. And so I got to work on revitalizing Ghirardelli Square in San Francisco. Repositioning the entire office buildings in downtown San Francisco for the evolution towards tech and the kind of higher density office space and some large scale open air shopping centers too. One down in Malibu, one down in Alameda. And I love that experience. It was really my entry gate into a sophisticated, real estate organization. Vertically integrated, got to really see how asset management, acquisitions, and development all really folded together to create a brand. And I decided to go back to business school for a deeper understanding of the finances behind real estate development. I went back to Berkeley and immersed myself in the Haas real estate program there, and loved the classes, loved the teachers, loved the curriculum and the competition teams. And about halfway through that, I realized I wanted to get into entitlement and acquisitions, and I felt that would be a huge value creator for my career and have been loving it ever since. And that started with Scannell really at the beginning of the industrial upswing. You couldn’t buy land fast enough. You couldn’t make decisions quick enough. It felt like learning five years of a job in about three years. It was just a sheer huge volume of work, and I loved every minute of it.

Justin Smith: And most of those projects were in Bay Area, East Bay?

Matt Anderson: Mostly Bay Area, Northern California. A large FedEx job in Richmond. A couple Amazon projects, one that took me out to Honolulu, Hawaii. Some advanced manufacturing jobs, and then some major distribution centers just outside the Bay Area. But mostly Northern California focused. And at the time I felt like I had a really good grasp on the industrial industry and was maybe looking for something, a smaller team where I could have a bigger role and in an exciting asset class. Really it was serendipitous that cold storage came out in front of me. Scott Pertel, my CEO, was friends with Todd Berryhill, my former managing director. He hoteled a desk in that office for a month. We played around a golf with one another, and then a year later when my wife and I were out there during Covid just getting a break from California, I ran into him and just there was an opportunity and it sounded very compelling and decided to lean into it. So that’s what brought me to Cold Summit Development about two years ago, and it’s been an exciting ride ever since.

Justin Smith: A round a golf is what got me into real estate.

Matt Anderson: I really credit golf for key relationships in my life and I love playing golf. It’s honestly one of my number ones. It’s either that or skiing. It depends on which time of the year it’s, but it’s a fantastic sport. And Scott’s a really good player too.

Justin Smith: Pebble Beach, Pasatiempo that’s where we find you when you’re not in the office.

Matt Anderson: I played all those. I would say Pasatiempo in my top five. I just played Mayacama recently up in Santa Rosa. That’s a great course. I haven’t played Pebble all that much. I need to get back down there.

Justin Smith: Yeah, I love it. El Paso was on the list, and I took my dad and my father-in-law to Pebble Beach, and we spent a couple days up there just like a dad’s trip. And so that’s next up to explore when we’re up that way.

Matt Anderson: Oh, that’s awesome.

Justin Smith: So if we need a ringer to make a foursome, we have a ringer now call.

Matt Anderson: Give me a call. I’d love to.

Justin Smith: That’s so great. And fortunate to land where you landed and then your role, it seems you have quite a bit of responsibility. How would you describe your role over there?

Matt Anderson: It certainly evolved as our team has grown. I came in as number seven in the company as the VP of development, really bringing in my experience with acquisitions and entitlement, schedules, estimating, managing construction really all the way through the life cycle. And started applying that to their portfolio right out the gates. But over time we brought on additional folks to help with acquisitions and investments, with asset management and leasing, as well as on our development platform. So right now it’s, mainly helping support acquisitions, build to suit pursuits, due diligence, entitlement permitting and entitling, once we’re able to get the project teed up for construction start, that’s when I start to transition, and hand it off to the construction team.

Justin Smith: Awesome. So you’ll support with acquisitions. It’s interesting if you think of any cold storage group, I’ve only known a few because it’s a niche part of the industrial world. And as you are figuring out what markets to go after, and where there’s the business and where there’s the right environment to succeed or where to invest in the time and the relationships. That’s an interesting challenge.

Justin Smith: We are not in LA so much. I found the one in Glendale, I think I had seen before in Glendale, Arizona. I just worked on a deal out there back in January. What I find interesting is if you’ve ever seen some of Amazon’s new two and three and 4 million square foot properties.

Matt Anderson: G series, yeah..

Justin Smith: Yeah, there’s similar style. It’s not the same, but similar style with the pod in the middle and then the look is a little bit similar. I was hoping maybe you could go over a little bit of what markets and then delve in a little bit to the construction itself and

Matt Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. You know, with markets that we go after we think that we take a unique approach by leveraging some proprietary data that we source and aggregate to help inform decisions and also really try to evaluate what markets are being primarily underserved and or showing signs of increasing demand for cold storage. Pretty straightforward.

Justin Smith: And have enough utilities available, I would imagine is a big one.

Matt Anderson: Utilities are a big component of that, being at the crosshairs of major distribution, networks across the US is a big one, being close to population centers or even really where a lot of the food is produced. And then I would say exit points and entry points into the US. So like port cities or port adjacent properties. Those are really where we target and some of those lead themselves more than others to be a better contributor or an improvement to the overall cold chain. That’s what we’re trying to do. That really leads a lot of our effort. We also follow our clients and users wherever they go through build to suits, whether that’s through to their manufacturing hubs or existing distribution. That’s taken us so far to Phoenix, to Dallas and Chicago. We’ve picked those cities about two years ago and they’ve performed really well and seen tremendous leasing activity and demand. Really playing into the thesis that we set up for those. So it’s been great to watch those come to substantial completion and really lease up over the last six to nine months.

Matt Anderson: And right now, like a lot of groups, we’re taking a look at the national stage right now and where we can break into and where we want to break into. And it’s difficult. there’s a lot of competition through other industrial uses, and availability of land and entitlement issues, timeline issues, cost issues, but we’d love to be in California. We’d love to be in Atlanta, GA, Florida, Nevada, Seattle, Virginia, New Jersey, and LA. Those are all the top 10, top 15 markets. We’re just trying to find a way to get in and find a good site that works for us because it is somewhat unique, like you alluded to, a lot of utilities. We’re generally going for a slightly higher building. Our site coverage isn’t as dense as some others, like you alluded to our office pods. That’s kind of the markets that we’re going after.

Justin Smith: Just a quick question so the Arizona, Phoenix, Dallas and the Chicago, that was on a spec basis.

Matt Anderson: Fully spec, yep.

Justin Smith: And then, with Ware Malcolm, I had learned a little bit about like cold ready. What was the final finish when it was available for lease versus the finish product once the tenant has moved in? How complete is it? How much is spec’d out, a 100%? Or only a portion and part of the inside of the envelope is yet to be complete?

Matt Anderson: Maybe to help answer that question, I can just share with you what we’re delivering, and I think that’ll answer it. So what we’re bringing a fully multi-tenant speculative refrigerated warehouse to the market. That’s capable of going all the way down to minus 20 degrees Fahrenheit and sustaining that for the entire building. Or upper end of the refrigerated space, 55 Fahrenheit. And so we can demise our building into a number of different suite sizes with predetermined thermal breaks through our double column lines or we can cut open the slab and create another thermal break and put a demising wall wherever we see fit.

Matt Anderson: But we are delivering, I would say, top of the market, the highest quality finishes available. Shrinkage compensating slabs, an ammonia system with VFDs, additional redundant compressors.

Justin Smith: VFD, if you wouldn’t mind.

Matt Anderson: Variable frequency drives, which help these very large compressor motors start up, and run at low speeds at a hyper efficient rate rather than using the full amperage of the motor. These variable frequency drives help them operate at a lower speed and dramatically reduce cost. We build our buildings with all the loading dock equipment included. And so it’s plug and play. A lot of the offices we’re delivering in what we’re calling like a white box, open office shell. So it’s got ceiling, it’s got light, it’s got floors. You just bring in your office furniture and you know it’s ready to occupy. We’ve seen that play out really well. Tenants want speed and so we’re incorporating that into our offering. That’s the majority of it. The envelope really is there to support that minus 20 degree Fahrenheit. And we’ve got all the refrigeration systems and the building management systems to support that. Plus a 24 hour monitoring service so that tenant don’t have to hire their own engineers, to monitor the refrigeration systems 24 hours, which is a huge cost saving. We’ll talk about it later, but all of that scale, spread across multiple tenants, really reduces those costs to drive efficiency and we’re seeing tenants really appreciate that.

Justin Smith: Yeah, that’s fantastic. It’s such a departure from what the normal deal is that we’ll see in our world right. We work with food companies all the time, but the refrigeration component is just always such like 20% of the overall, sometimes upwards of 50%. And then, it’s pretty rare you’ll find the food specific brokers in the country that like delve into this with the regularity. I feel like there’s six of them. And even though I’m 600 deals in, I’m only like seven deals in on the refrigerated space game or on a food production plants and distribution and kind of in the cold storage world. I’m sure you get to educate a lot of people, at least in the brokerage world maybe but I suppose most users they already know what they want. Who would you say is like the general user profile of who is a great fit for these buildings?

Matt Anderson: That’s a great question. We’re trying to capture as many potential customers and tenants and users as possible, but I would say we can break it down into really three main categories. There’s the makers, the movers, and the sellers. Food manufacturers, food processors, food handlers is its own category. It’s heavier use, floor drains, different rooms, higher TI’s. You’ve got your distributors, which can be regional distribution for users. It can be 3PLs, really taking frozen pallets in and moving frozen pallets out or cases out. And then you’ve got your sellers which is the last mile direct to consumer groups that are sending product directly to households, either fresh meal kits or prepackaged grocery boxes. And so really that’s what we’re trying to capture. We’re trying to make a space flexible enough that can really be leased and modified slightly hopefully to be able to service all of those tenants.

Matt Anderson: And it can be difficult. It’s hard to build a building flexible enough, that can handle all those different uses. But what our team has done, our executive Vice President of Construction, Mike Smith, who has 25 years of experience in building nothing but cold storage buildings. He’s built for all the majors. He’s built for Sysco. He’s built for DOT Foods; he’s built for Kraft, so he knows what each of these major users want and what they incorporate into their own design. And he has picked and pulled every of those features and brought them into our building design. So really, our design encapsulates the best of the best and what all of these groups really are looking for. So when we’re going through the requirements checklists, they’re just checking the boxes on every single one of them when it comes to thermal, refrigeration floors, power capacity, dock equipment, it’s already all there.

Justin Smith: Yeah, speed has never been more important. I could only imagine multiply that by cold storage requirements and like the potential to have time delays could be all over the place. So if you already have it all spec’d out and done like that, I could see that be extremely valuable.

Matt Anderson: And we’ve seen that play out on really our first three leases, where groups were looking to service existing customers and they needed to be in and operational within a matter of months. And so we’re able to tailor our approach, deliver the space, set up temporary facilities and work with the city governments to allow that. But really being able to deliver the space occupiable within a matter of weeks. As soon as the lease can get signed, you can move into the space. And if you’re trying to procure dock equipment right now, that’s very difficult to do.

Justin Smith: Without a doubt. Is it 30 weeks or what’s the number these days?

Matt Anderson: I’m not sure on, on dock equipment to be specific, but I know racking and forklift equipment is very long lead.

Justin Smith: Too long is the answer. Too long for leaving people in alert.

Matt Anderson: Way too long.

Justin Smith: And then, I happen to have a food delivery user that’s a pretty sizeable and trying to go into Dallas next. Did you already fill your Dallas building, or you got any more going up over there?

Matt Anderson: We’ll have to offline that one, but no we’ve got space available in Dallas. We’ve got 350,000 square feet. Two of the suites are leased up, but we still have two suites remaining totaling about 210,000 square feet. I’d have to double check the pallet count, but I think that’s about 30 to 35,000 pallets available for storage. So we should absolutely continue this conversation. And we’ve also got another site just down the road from our current Dallas offering where we’re hoping to do it again because we love the Dallas market. We think there’s great fundamentals there and we’ve developed some great relationships in that market and ready to do it again.

Justin Smith: Fantastic. What other markets do you have active product available for lease today or in the near future?

Matt Anderson: Right now there’s Dallas that’s available with 210,000 square feet available for lease. There’s Phoenix, with 275,000 square feet available. We’re in discussions with multiple groups right now but there are three suites available. And we just finished our building in Chicago, in Bedford Park, right there by Midway Airport, about 215,000 square feet with two suites available there as well. So those are our current offerings available for lease. We are looking to start construction on another project, which is really a port adjacent play where we’re partnering with the Port of Wilmington, North Carolina, and starting construction on 290,000 square feet there, hopefully by the end of this year here, very soon. And then we’re looking to break into the Indiana market here first quarter of next year. Those are kind of the ones available right here. But we’re looking to really jump into many markets in 2023, including Northern California and Southern California.

Justin Smith: So the price to lease this kind of space blew my mind when I first saw in LA in some, Vernon buildings. And it was just something, it was like 2x of whatever I was expecting it to be, and this is a single tenant building, 50,000 feet, much smaller. What changes in lease rate and then lease terms and structure for these types of buildings? You’re doing five year deal, 10 year deals. Any other things that like operations is different, having maybe not guaranteed uptime, but like supporting users and making sure that you can maintain the systems. How’s pricing compare? I know Chicago’s different from Dallas, different from Phoenix and certainly different from Southern California but what’s the general vibe? How do you come up with pricing for that because it’s a unique offering out there that probably has few comparable?

Matt Anderson: You’re exactly right. There aren’t a lot of comps. There aren’t even a lot of sales to point back to. I think when we were first bringing Dallas and Phoenix into the market, we had underwritten some guidance that I think was fairly conservative and we’ve outperformed and really driven by tenant demand. In Chicago we’re seeing the same thing. And you’re right, what you’re paying for is a more expensive building, first and foremost. These are far more complex and far more expensive than your traditional dry building and there’s a lot more inherent risk. So I would say in that kind of two to three x of that, Class A dry industrial is about right. That’s what we’re shooting for really is in the middle there. And I think that would be a good indicator. But, with any market, we’re following kind of supply demand characteristics.

Justin Smith: TBD, we’re not telling you the price. You got to call us and then we can talk about it. I love it. Market pricing is on the daily, like the fresh catch of the day. What are we charging for filet mignon today? But cost to build in construction, I sure know of any time we’ve had a building delete. Old food building that has, climate control and if they turn all the systems off, or how does it go through leasing and continue to make readies in between space. How do you manage vacancy? I guess these are all new buildings maybe you haven’t had to manage vacancy, but do those systems have to be rebuilt and the inside of the envelope have to be rebuilt between tenants or it’s all reusable? Or how’s the vacancy work in these buildings?

Matt Anderson: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think how we’re approaching it because they are brand new buildings, so you can go in there and they’re, pristine in their current state, super clean. What we’re envisioning is tenants are gonna be building out their palletized systems, whether that’s automated or a traditional double deep rack system. We don’t foresee a whole lot of impact to the envelope. We invested in the shrinkage compensating slabs that really don’t crack at all, which lower maintenance for forklift operations and really, they stay out of the ceiling. So the refrigeration systems that we’ve built there’s redundancy built in, so they’re not overworked. We have a warranty and maintenance program signed up with our subcontractor who installed the system. And so we don’t foresee really any issues with these systems for a very long time. We’ve designed them for really a 50 year lifespan. And so we invested heavily up front to ensure 5, 7, 10 years down the line that we’re not having to reinvest significant amount of new capital to revitalize these systems.

Justin Smith: You still will minimize vacancy and you still want to get the next guy in as fast as possible, I would imagine. The system’s designed for that.

Matt Anderson: Yeah, the great aspect of the system that we designed is centralized ammonia system with fan coils going into really each suite, you can turn them on really easily. And so we’ll do a system startup with substantial completion during construction and then we’ll pull down the space before they actually take commencement on the lease. But we can test it really easily and see if there’s any issues and be able to control it through a cloud based app. We’re able to have that ability to see how the tenants are performing from a sustainability, energy consumption perspective and really look to see if there’s any ways that they can improve their efficiency. We’ve created a building management system that connects to the dock doors, the warehouse doors the electrical meters, all the temperature sensors, and so we can actually help them improve their operations and lower their efficiencies through that. Similar with any startup you’re gonna run some baselines but once we get them into the building, we’re able to really help them lower their costs. And then we’ll be able to use some of that data later on to help customers across the nation with improvements in their operations.

Justin Smith: That’s awesome. It’s funny to think of a big package unit that can service 300,000 feet of climate controlled space. That costs a pretty penny I imagine.

Matt Anderson: Massive amounts of power, massive amounts of water, in the conversion of the energy. But we’ve designed this very unique system with flow meters special valving that really reduces cost as much as possible. We ran a white paper analysis, and our building really reduces energy consumption from our tenants on a magnitude level better than the existing product that you were talking about earlier, that older, kind of lower clear height, probably freon system where you’re using refrigerants that might not even be allowed in the state of California anymore and are doing a number on our ozone layer. We’re really trying to drive the cold chain into this new evolution of sustainability and environmentally friendly practice.

Justin Smith: Yeah, it’s a bold new day in the cold chain like it’s on the forefront of all of that. Surely, we could do a lot better. So I’m glad there’s good people out there figuring out that problem. How do the capital markets receive this type of product? Have you guys gone to market and sold any of them? Or I would imagine there’s an appetite for them should you ever decide that’s something that you want to do.

Matt Anderson: There absolutely is. We haven’t brought any of the buildings to sale yet. We’re gonna be strategically waiting the best time to do so. But I would say, one of the reasons why I think cold storage is so interesting too, is it’s really gone through this kind of transformation the last couple of years. Before I think it was an alternative asset class, maybe a secondary investment, lot of build to suit owner users in the space and a lot of groups didn’t understand it. Didn’t know what it would take, or how to build it, how to maintain it. But I think there was this evolution of it changing from that secondary asset class into really infrastructure and being termed infrastructure. And bolstering our food supply chain, as a critical asset class for national security even. And so that really changed how people looked at it and we’ve seen huge cap rate compression over the last two years from where it was creating that previously. Huge capital inflow, LPs really trying to take advantage of some of that margin. And so it’s a really exciting space to be in and we anticipate really healthy return profile at the end. I think there’s been one sale pretty recently with UBS, that has really strong kind of undercurrent to it. So we’re excited when we do get to that stage.

Justin Smith: Yeah, I believe it. And I would think that a lot of the tenants probably are bigger and have a good credit profile and credit is king in some of these things. So I imagine that’ll help the cause, or you’d have a basket of credit that would be desirable out there to the capital market.

Matt Anderson: Certainly trying to do that. And with the multi-tenant building, I think it allows us some flexibility in there where we can sign a long term lease with a high credit tenant, but also bring one of those single suite offerings to one of those users that want to control their supply chain and distribution system, but maybe doesn’t have the best credit in the market. So we’re able to tailor these buildings to help service a lot of different customer profiles from a credit perspective.

Justin Smith: Land sites, if people are bringing you sites. If I’m bringing you a site, I’m looking for 20 acres minimum or 40 acres, or what’s the general profile of what we’re looking for?

Matt Anderson: Great question and please bring me some sites. I would love to take a look at them. I would say 30 acres, 40 acres would be ideal for our kind of programmatic 350,000 square foot, four-tenant building. It works really well on 25 to 30 acres, but it’s nice to have a little bit of room for either expansion or if you’re incorporating rail, you need a little bit more space for that. Lately we’ve also been going after you know, smaller, about 200,000 square footprint buildings. And that’s usually in the kind of 18 to 20 acre. So we like both, but we really like scale. So I would say, 30 to 40 acres, ideally rail adjacent, flat, zoned and rectangular.

Justin Smith: That’s perfect with no hurricanes, no floods, no earthquakes.

Matt Anderson: Exactly, we know it’s hard to find all those at the moment. But hey, we’re going into an interesting time right now, where we know people have been holding onto some great positions and maybe looking to capitalize on some of those. And so we’re excited to see what comes out over the next six months.

Justin Smith: Yeah, so with the freeze, the great deep breath, surely that’ll knock loose some land sites. That’ll knock loose some land pricing that’s just more favorable right. Land has already come down quite a bit and supposed to keep going down. Although you then have to be the one that can be in the game when others are not in the game. But I figure that should open up all sorts of different opportunities.

Matt Anderson: That’s really what were poised, and I think ready to be able to do. Where I think this pause or this freeze, however you want to call it, is making it difficult for a lot of groups to sustain and keep going. We’ve got I think an acquisitions, construction, development, leasing team poisoned, ready to jump all over these. And we are, we’ve got a lot in our pipeline right now, but we’ve got the scale and capacity, and great leadership and great talent to keep going. And really kind work some of these deals very quickly. We’re open, we’re transparent, we’re straightforward and honest. We like to work with partners that have the same qualities and looking forward to seeing what shakes out of the market here in the near future.

Justin Smith: Yeah, what a time to be alive and in the game. That’s pretty cool to see how it’s all gonna go down and if it’s a little or a lot. Or if it’s widespread or how that manifests and how you can turn it into opportunity.

Justin Smith: Cool Matt, that’s all I got. I appreciate you spending time with me and delving into cold storage in the cold chain a little bit. That’s helpful and I thought I knew a little bit about it, but we all have a long way to go in this part of the asset class. So it’s exciting to learn more and then learn how we might be able to bring opportunity your way.

Matt Anderson: We’d love to. We’d love to find a way to work together between you and your office and Cold Summit Development. I really appreciate just the opportunity being on your podcast and talking about one of my favorite subjects, cold storage and just getting to know you a little bit better. So I really appreciate your time.

Justin Smith: Cool, thank you Matt.

I want to thank you for joining me on this episode. And if you liked what you heard, please drop me a note at or text me (949)400-4786 and let me know if there’s any follow up you would like. If you have any guests or anyone you’d like to hear interviewed or see on the show, let me know. I’m always looking for new exciting guests and look forward to connecting with you. Thank you.