Industrial real estate is more than just tall buildings and land: It also includes production and development of the area to build spaces that tenants and property owners will desire.

Justin speaks with Matt Traino of IDS to talk about industrial development. Matt gives updates about the San Diego industrial development. He highlights the challenges and the growth of Otay. He also talks about the importance of focus and keeping your customers center, especially with the challenges that you might face on a daily basis.

 

 

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Highlights

• Who is Matt Traino and what is IDS? – 0:23
• Life Science and IDS. – 5:25
• What is GMP? – 6:11
• Other works that Matt Traino spent his time on. – 7:59
• Things that he came across that gave him new experiences. – 11:10
• Time kills all deals. – 14:12
• The growth of Otay. 16:54
• Is the second POE enough to make a bed and grab a land? – 21:58
• Turning old school reports into easy to understand information using different software. – 25:24
• Is balance coming anytime soon? – 29:49

 

Episode Resources

Connect with Matt Traino

• https://www.idsrealestate.com/

Connect with Justin Smith

• https://smithcre.com/ 
• https://www.lee-associates.com/ 
• jbsmith@leeirvine.com 
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinbsmith  

 

 

Justin Smith: Hey, there you go.

Matt Traino: How are you?

Justin Smith: I’m doing good. Matt Traino from IDS. IDS I have found is different than what I had expected. You guys have so many different capabilities. So maybe you can help just walk through your history there and kind of your role and what you work on.

Matt Traino: So, a quick tidbit on IDS, so founded in 86, a mashup of ex CVRE and Trammell Crow folks and that was kind of the culture. I think it’s morphed since then, but we are at our core and owner operator and developer of industrial office and retail and really in that order. We’ve done a lot of industrial development. We own and operate a lot of industrial today. We’ve done some office; we’ve done some really nice office projects over the last 15 years. And we’ve done a little bit of retail, which is always fun to do. Personalities are high in retail, but it’s been fun. It’s been fun to do a little bit, especially in the last six, seven years and watch industrial and retail merge itself into almost one business. So that’s been very interesting.

I’ve been with IDS; this is my 18th year. I started right out of college. I went to San Diego state. I studied finance. Didn’t know I wanted to be in real estate. Was lucky to fall into it and have just been grinding away every day for 18 years.

Justin Smith: You and I are about the same amount of time in the business. It’s fun to have gone through what cycles we have. And then think through what we know now. Now you’re confident enough to take on bigger deals, right. And like a really build on a skill set where you’ve done enough and seen enough and like kind of know things when you see it and have that intuition a little more now.

Matt Traino: Every time you do something, you pick up a new skill and then it kind of compounds on itself. I don’t know how you feel, but I feel like the 10-year mark was kind of a significant mark where you really felt like you were able to run a little bit. Obviously continuing to learn every day, but I think gaining confidence in what you’re doing is so important and it just comes with experience.

Justin Smith: There’s no way around it. And you’re in San Diego.

Matt Traino: Downtown San Diego, IDS has offices along the west coast. So, we’re up in Seattle. We’re in San Francisco. We’re headquartered in Los Angeles. We’ve got one close to you in Orange and then we’re down here in San Diego. In San Diego we’re right in downtown, right by Petco Park, lively area and we’ve been in this area for about 16 years.

Justin Smith: Yeah, I was looking up a 200 million feet of industrial is what I got thinking the market size. So, if we’ve got a 900 in LA, 600 in the IE, 300 in OC. And then your work primarily is in San Diego.

Matt Traino: 90% of it. A big portion of that is down in the most Southern submarket, which is an Otay Mesa. Which has been a sub-market that still have some land and has some growth left in it. It’s now the largest industrial sub-market down here. I think actually brokerage reports just came out the other day, I think it was CBs that I saw first that now have Otay at just a hair over 20 million feet. And then the next largest submarket is Kearny Mesa right around like 15.4 and 15.5. So, yes Otay has been growing and will continue to grow because it’s really the only place where you can build.

Justin Smith: So, if you don’t know San Diego in the marketplace for industrial, where are big pockets, that’s one of them and that’s by the border, that’s inland and Southeast of downtown. And what else do we have?

Matt Traino: So, in central San Diego, you’ve got Kearny Mesa, right. Which is right in, the center of the county. You’ve got the 163, you’ve got the 805 and the 52 that all kind of come right through Kearny Mesa. So very centrally located historically kind of a strong corporate headquarter location in San Diego. Jack in the Box is still there with a pretty big presence. WD-40, WAXI some of the corporations that have been around in San Diego for a long time are in Kearny Mesa.

You’ve also got Miramar, which is a little bit behind Kearny in total inventory but another strong central classically industrial submarket. If you go north and you head up to Carlsbad, you got about, I think 14ish million feet in Carls. Oceanside and Carlsbad have been a historically where all the industrial is in north county. South county has some other smaller submarkets. National City being one of those. Chula Vista another one. National City is really driven by the working waterfront. Ship building industry there with NASSCO who’s owned by General Dynamics, big ship builder. BAE systems has a shipyard down there. So, you’ve got a lot of support, a lot of industrial that supports the working waterfront down there.

Justin Smith: And life science, life science is huge right. We thought we had a life science world until I saw what yours looks like and then it was like, okay, we got nothing.

Matt Traino: It’s been wild the last five years really accelerating the last 24 months down here with life science. A ton of conversions, which are taking industrial inventory out of play. We’re also seeing markets that historically have been a little bit soft in terms of demand heat up because of life science, GMP. Script’s Ranch being one of those. I think we’re seeing a lot of that right now, where you’ve got quite a robust amount of activity from life science developers looking to either partner with traditional industrial developers or acquire land and go out and market these as GMP facilities. I think that trends going to continue down here.

Tell me GMP, what is it?

So, it’s essentially the manufacturing facility for the life science guys. So, it’s not lab space. It’s not the Torrey Pines, $6 $7 a square foot space that San Diego has historically been known for tied to research and development. This is more of the manufacturing space for the life science users. So, it’s a tilt building and it’s not too dissimilar from what we’re used to building as the pure industrial guys. Obviously, it’s unique in terms of its improvements for the life science guys but think of it as more manufacturing.

Justin Smith: Got it. I’ve done enough work with the diagnostic lab companies to know a bit about it. But I’d say I’m just like still in the middle phase of learning of like diagnostic lab is like the poor man’s life sciences where the level of cleanliness it’s not like it’s a low, but just the clean rooms is different. Like you don’t get to those rents in for a diagnostic lab where you would for kind of higher end life science users. Yeah, it’s interesting to think that’s become its own asset class a little bit to see people specialize in that. I feel like that’s a market that people are starting to crack open a little bit, but I’m not sure I know enough to know if I had a hundred million bucks in a strategy around it how I would graph one.

Matt Traino: Yeah. I’m in your camp. I don’t know it well enough. I think we’re starting to see quite a bit more of it down here and it’s something that a lot of folks should start getting smart on.

Justin Smith: Some work you do spend a lot of time. Let’s crack open, Otay Mesa a little bit. That’s your stomping ground. I would imagine you’re spending a lot of time there working on some big projects. What’s going on up there?

Matt Traino: Yeah, we have been very active in that market for about 12, maybe going on 13 years now. So, we have acquired a portfolio of assets down there on behalf of a joint venture with CalSTRS and that’s kept us quite busy over the last really seven or eight years. We were fortunate to come into that market at a time when industrial wasn’t as sexy as it is today. And Otay Mesa wasn’t getting the attention from really from the institution investment groups out there. So, we were able to come in and pick up a portfolio, significantly improve it, put a lot of capital into it, lease it up and we run that now. And that’s about right around 2 million square feet. We’re in the process of evaluating if we’re going to continue to be that heavily invested in that single submarket, or potentially diversify out with our partner into some other some markets to San Diego.

And then just having the ability to have that much product coverage in the market at that point was about 15 million square feet. So having 2 million, you’re seeing everything and you’re getting to know almost every tenant it feels like. And you know every broker very well and you’re hustling. And we’ve been able to pick a large 40-acre development site that we bought at the end of 19 with the intention of doing a about a 660,000 square foot spec development deal. And not long after we closed, we were fortunate to start working with Amazon on a big build to suit project. So that is now under construction down there and that has taken up a lot of time. It’s a big project. It’s a 700,000 square foot sortation center. We’re well underway. We should be delivering to Amazon in in late January of 2022. So, we are moving quickly. We started in mid-May.

Justin Smith: The roof is on.

Matt Traino: Roof is on, we’re painting, we’re paving. Painting and paving.

Justin Smith: That’s when it gets real, when the roof is on, I feel like for the layman or for the neighborhood or for anybody. Once you see it, you’re like, I don’t need to use my imagination anymore. This thing’s coming together and being put in place pretty quick now.

Matt Traino: It’s fun to talk to some other real estate folks who don’t do a lot of industrial, and they’re amazed at how quickly the buildings go up. You know, we will tilt this is about a 520,000 square foot footprint, you’ve got 180,000 feet of mezzanine. And the building goes from completely horizontal, there’s nothing vertical to having all your walls up in a matter of 10 days. I think people are blown away that built steel office buildings, stick and frame retail. So that’s always fun.

Justin Smith: I’m sure it could fill a book with what you learned in that experience. What would be some of the things when you think of when it started and ground up and the cities and infrastructure and dealing with the Amazon, has your unique needs? Usually, people aren’t used to dealing with these huge metal decks and thinking how their operation is different than the normal. What are some of the things that you came across that kind of gave you a new experience or that were new to you?

Matt Traino: I think we were fortunate in that the firm has done a couple other Amazon deals. So, by no means, are we doing these all over the country, but we have a few under our belt. So having the lessons learned from the prior deals is really helpful.

Justin Smith: Rumor has it once you do one forever will you be doing a bunch of them. As many as you would like to do.

Matt Traino: I would certainly hope so. I think we’ve taken a real customer centric approach to our project where I think we’re in a great spot with Amazon. I think they really like working with our team and we’ve hustled our tails off for them because ultimately, we’re building the project per their specs.

We own it with a partner East Group Properties. You got to take care of your customer. And sometimes you can lose sight of that especially if you’re used to spec development, but you got to keep the customer at the center of what you’re doing everyday down there. I think going back to your original question, I think that a lot of the lessons learned for me in the beginning of this project were in the entitlement phase and the politics. As we’ve all seen, Amazon is a sensitive subject politically and it’s become more so. And as we were wrapping up our entitlement, Bessemer, Alabama was getting a lot of public national attention. There were some other local labor issues that were getting attention locally. There was a big shift in, in political control here in San Diego at the county level. That took place right in towards the tail end of our entitlement.

So, every day you wake up before you’re entitled thinking, what’s going to come at me today. What fire is going to pop up. And as much as you can game plan and play chess and think a few moves ahead every week there’s something that surprises you and you just have to be fully, fully in it every day. You can’t kind of walk away from it, like maybe a lease transaction where you got a few days off of working on it. It’s every day there’s something going on and if you’re not on it, it can kind of blow up in your face. And that was a big challenge.

Justin Smith: I’ve only had a couple of those, but one that is in my memory pretty firmly was that as time goes by those things change more almost if you think of like a different supervisor or another election that’s coming, or like those things don’t just stabilize. And then you can say, okay, we dealt with that challenge, we overcame it, we found a good solution for everybody and it’s on. It’s like, okay, who now is interested in thinking about this with us and going back and opening up things that we’d already put to rest. It is interesting to think through like time and how it affects that part. I imagine that you really want to get in and get it going and get to when you can start building and doing something like making progress.

Matt Traino: Yeah. I mean, the old adage is so true that time kills all deals. And especially, I think exponentially true when you’re getting towards the tail end of an entitlement. You want to control everything. And to the extent that you have things that you can’t control, they can hurt you and they can sink you. And I think we saw that just recently down here at another Amazon project. Amazon pulled out of that project. You can work on this stuff for two years and lose it at the last minute.

Justin Smith: And say, I hope you didn’t get too excited about that deal. That one’s going away now.

There’s always another deal, but you don’t those blood, sweat, and tears back.

Yeah. And I imagine for you, when you think about this, if you’ve got an East Group and you’ve got Amazon and you’re in the middle of two sides of that. In terms of like the operator and the operation and what are the needs of the building and like the ownership and being responsible for delivering on time. I imagine that an interesting place to be. To have both sides and both needs and both schedules and have to figure out how to make that work for everybody.

Matt Traino: Yeah, it’s a squeeze. You’re getting squeezed from kind of all sides, but we’ve got a really, really good team. We’ve got a fantastic construction management team. I’ve got a good development team. We have the experience of doing it. I think Amazon’s always changing their mind and that’s a big challenge and I’m sure you hear that from people who have done projects for them. They may change their mind really late. You may be ripping up chunks of your slab because they wanted to change where some of the mezzanine loading is. You just never know what they’re going to throw at you, and you’ve got to move quick, and you’re required to, you’re obligated to move quick when they say that, hey, we want to try this out. So, it’s dynamic. It is dynamic once you’re under construction and you got to have a really experienced, very solid construction team.

Justin Smith: They believe in evolving right in iterating and experimenting and that’s where that becomes real. Otay is a border town. So how does that factor into its general growth and where there’s opportunities now and going forward?

Matt Traino: So Otay really didn’t get started with any development until really the mid to late eighties. The commercial border crossing is the second port of entry in San Diego. So, you’ve got a crossing over in San Isidro, which is the busiest land border crossing in the country. So, you don’t have any cargo coming through San Isidro. You’ve got Otay Mesa POE, which is where all the commercial trucks cross the county and the feds have been working on a second port of entry in Otay called Otay Two locally. And that is patchy has a ton of progress the last few years with infrastructure going out to it. And there’s an agreement in place that was announced about three, four months ago for that second POE to open I think end of 2024, beginning of 2025 and that’s been in the works for a very long time. We could talk more about that cause it’s a really interesting POE. Once Otay opened for commercial cargo, Trammell Crow came down built a project right around the port of entry, this was about ’87. Mike Murphy, Murphy Development went down there and built a couple of large projects around that same time and that really got Otay started. Historically, it’s been driven by the Maquiladoras. So, you’ve got manufacturing in Tijuana or in other regions in Baja and got the product moving up across the border and being stored in the U.S. You’ve also got raw material being stored in Otay and sent south. So really auto has driven a lot of that, the auto industry, aerospace medical device. And it’s interesting too, to get into one of our facilities with our tenants and to understand how many times the inputs and the outputs are crossing the border with one product. Like we were in Bose facility. So, this is a Cisco headset, but Bose has a facility in Otay, and we were talking to their general manager about, how many times the inputs of a car speakers will come across the border until it’s done and it’s a finished good. It’s really interesting. You’re seeing a lot of material cross. It may be partially assembled. Come back, get another additive and then go back across again. It’s really very interesting and intriguing and a lot of it has to do with, with tariffs and tariff free zones, like foreign trade zones. So, it’s historically been kind of heavily dependent on the Maquiladoras world. I think that’s changed the last, probably the last 10 years, really because of big infrastructure investment in Otay. Major infrastructure investment in terms of new roads and highways down there that lead to the port of entry and really connect Otay to broader San Diego. And now we’re seeing tenants come from markets like we talked about earlier, Kearny, Mesa, Miramar other parts of south county and come to Otay because they can get there a lot quicker than they used to. Cause the infrastructure’s there it’s also historically been more affordable, and we’ve got new product. We’ve got brand new 36 foot clear, class A, ESFR buildings down there and we don’t have a lot of that in other places in the county.

Justin Smith: I could see people as they’re doing their network studies and they’re thinking Vegas and Phoenix and where else can I be that’s not right next to the ports. That would start to be more on the radar for people as they’re just like a work in their supply chains and their network and they’re trying to figure out where to be. That’s a place that will now have a lot of products that’s new on the map, or maybe that people don’t factor in as much. Or maybe I just am new to the game of learning more about it.

Matt Traino: We’ll see what happens with that during the Trump presidency, a lot of talk about modifications to NAFTA or the US, Mexico, Canada agreement, or us Canada. Mexico agreement now. So, I think there was a little bit of hesitation are we going to see a major shift because that was either going to go away or be significantly modified. I think in the end, what happened, it was just modernized. Changes were made on the margin, and it became it just got better, which is great. And now we’re seeing all the issues with the supply chain now and the backup in LA, Long Beach and is this going to lead to more manufacturing in Mexico? I hope so. I’m not smart enough to answer that question.

Justin Smith: How can it not?

Matt Traino: You got to think that it will.

Justin Smith: Yeah, without a doubt is the second POE enough where we’re all placing our bets down there and grabbing land? Or is that we got to wait until there’s a certain level of approval to finally make the bed or everybody with their own risk profile is figuring out when to go.

Matt Traino: It’s definitely happening. It’s been happening for the last probably three or four years in earnest. Be extension of the roadway that gets you down there, which is the Sr 11 locally is under construction. I think it’s going to be done in about a year. And that’s going to take you right to the footprint of the POE. Gosh, it probably took, I don’t know, six or seven or even eight years for the government or the really SANDAG and the feds to come in and acquire all the right of way they needed. So that was a long process that was finished a couple of years ago, maybe three, four years ago now. And since then, it’s moved pretty steadily. I don’t think it’s moved as fast as everybody would like, but it has steadily moved. What’s interesting is we’re not seeing a lot of movement on the Mexico side, but they don’t have the same issues that we have in terms of property rights. So, they can literally come across either side of the border. And what looks like, little progress today can be a lot of progress in a short amount of time.

Justin Smith: Here comes the stream roller. But moral of the story is, it takes two right. They’ve got to get all that part connected for it to be of any value for everybody.

Matt Traino: It’s also a toll-based port of entry, which is interesting. So, they’ve got a dynamic pricing model that will alert trucking companies and truckers when they are a certain distance away, they can check the price. And if the wait time at Otay 1 is long, the price may be more, it may be let’s say six bucks to cross. If the wait times at Otay 1 or 30 minutes, it may be $2 to cross. So, they’ve got this dynamic pricing model in place, which is very interesting. And then they’ve also got the ability to flex the lanes which is really, really intriguing. So, you can actually modify. The north and southbound lanes, which has a ton of layers of complication depending on the traffic, am a lot of northbound traffic. You can have 12 northbound lanes and eight southbound lanes in the traffic pattern switch in the afternoon or evening, and you can then flip that. So that is very, very interesting really advanced technology for a POE. So, if you’re interested in that, there’s a lot of information on SANDAG’s website about that. So, it’s going to be very, very, very impactful for the Otay market.

Justin Smith: That’s a, rather than just build more lanes and more lanes and then have half sit empty all the time. Interesting. Yeah. It’s a new way of doing it, another evolution. I had a question for you about that technology. It’s in our world more and more every day. We were a little slow on the uptake, our industry in general. And so, now like reporting or for any like other like projects where there’s increased collaboration between teams. So, for me it will be on like VTS for leasing, is one way. How do you get the old school reports and make people faster being able to understand what’s happening between capital partners and property managers and leasing teams? You have experience with many of those, is that all flown into your world a little bit? Which ones do you like, or which ones have you found are most prevalent for you and the teams you’re working with?

Matt Traino: Yeah, we have couple of years increasingly. So been working with a lot of different new software. I think it impacts what we do every day from the property management to the construction management, to the project management on the development side to the leasing VTS view the space if you’ve been around for a while. So, I think what’s interesting for us we have a lot of different parts. We also have a lot of front clients where we’re not an owner, we’re not a partner and we’re providing a service for them and mostly they’re institutions. So, what we find is it’s hard for us to adopt a software because we may have to use a certain software for Clarion for example. We may have to use a certain software for Dental Green Oak. We may need to use a totally different software for each group. So, it’s hard for us as a kind of an operator to come in and say, hey, we’re going to adopt this platform because there’s a smaller portion of our business where we have that control and that makes it really challenging for us. I love using it. I like to think of myself as more of an early adopter, but we’ve also got a culture where there’s not a ton of early adopters and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. So, you’re constantly

Justin Smith: It comes with its own challenges.

Matt Traino: And its real estate. There’s just this historically it hasn’t been a very tech centric industry and you got a lot of crotchety, old brokers and developers who think they know the way that they’re doing is the best way.

Justin Smith: What would I need all that for? Why am I wasting my time and my money on that kind of stuff? I know how to do it.

Matt Traino: I think we’re only going to see more of it. We had the ability go to a single platform to help us with property management that integrated in the leasing, which there’s a lot of options out there. I think I would personally want to do it in a heartbeat. It’s just that we’ve got so many different client requirements put on us that that makes it a big challenge.

Justin Smith: Yeah, that is interesting that you don’t get to choose it’s ordinarily whoever the capital partner is that’s driving everything that says this is a company-wide initiative and you’re a part of it. So come on in and we’ll give you access. But I feel like that probably gives you great experience to see what everyone’s doing and what’s working and which ones have what challenges. And that can transcend, and you can be a better at doing what you do based on that experience.

Matt Traino: You do get a lot of visibility. I think it’s a really exciting time if you were building a business from the ground up because I think there’s so much efficiency now in systems that if you were doing the same thing 10 years ago it would be night and day.

Justin Smith: How fast it can be up and running communications, collaborations, your platform, your system, whatever you need to get up and run it. Yeah, you cannot flip the switch, but it could be a pretty fast on it. If you got the idea, you got the money, you got the team.

Matt Traino: Absolutely. Just look at how fast we’ve all adopted Microsoft teams or whatever your kind of platform has been to communicate with your team while you’re all in different places. That happened what felt like overnight, and now it’s part of what we do every day.

Justin Smith: We do teams now. That’s just the deal. Man, I appreciate you taking the time I figure if we covered the big ones I would leave you with the last bombshell question for you, which would be it’s a bit chaotic with everybody in the ships out at sea is one, people talking about labor and dealing with that chat, like the myriad challenges, their inventory, China, electricity shortages, and just thinking through. We don’t call it the back to normal. It’s just thinking more of like equilibrium and how long it’s going to take, to find a more of a balance. Do you think we’ve got a balance coming anytime soon or it’s just a rough and tumble for as far as we can tell?

Matt Traino: I’ll just speak to the knowledge that I have on a micro level because I’m certainly not smart enough to figure out where these trends are going. But what I like to do is talk to our customers and our tenants every day and take that knowledge. And from having these discussions on a daily basis with our tenants who are 3PLs, freight forwarders who were in the e-commerce business. It does not seem like there is any slowdown in the demand. We continue to see almost all of our tenants inquire, is there space available in the building? Is there space available in your portfolio? We’ve got and a lot of it has been short-term needs. And I’m sure you’ve seen the same thing, hey, we need space for six months. Good luck guys no one’s giving you a six month deal right now.

Justin Smith: I appreciate you saying that for me Matt. It’s hard to communicate these messages sometimes to clients.

Matt Traino: They’ll call you the next day and say, okay, we’ll do 12 months. Well, look we’re not doing a 12-month deal either. So, I’m, I’m not seeing any trends in the conversations that we have daily that lead me to believe that anything is going to be worked out in the short term. I think there are market or submarket to submarket nuances that, you know, you need to have boots on the ground to understand you need to have that local expertise to weigh what supply is happening in your sub-market. But broadly to me, it seems like we’re going to be in a shortage of warehouse space for the foreseeable future, hopefully everybody that we talk to is looking for labor. You mentioned labor. I don’t know how that gets resolved. It just seems like that is a massive issue across almost every industry. So, something has to happen there, but I don’t know what that is.

Justin Smith: That’s a head scratcher of like strategies and just thinking through what pieces can move that can make that better for everybody.

Matt Traino: Mean, there’s a lot of people, a lot of people spending a lot of money on you know, removing labor from their systems. That’s a trend. That’s not going to slow down either.

Justin Smith: Some people like, turning market rate into affordable housing, right. As the two sides of the different spectrum, but it seems like it’s going to take a little bit of all of that at a minimum. Interesting. Well, I loved the talk with your customers, stay close with them, right? That’s where the learning is. Those are the people that have more visibility than you do. And it is hard to predict. I had one that sent and the manufacturer overseas. We helped them double it just went to talk with them and see what’s next.

And they said, we’ve been in this new building. We went from 50 to 100,000 feet. So, they said the first six months we were here, the building was a hundred percent empty because our product was locked up and we couldn’t get it here. And now it’s full and we need another 50. For short term, and now we’ve got a plan, our supply chain for inventory in years and months, which is going to cause us to hold more inventory and revenues doubled.

And it may triple. And I’m just trying to think through, like, how did your building be empty for six months and revenue double? Then like you’re hearing these things from customers and you’re just. Or like if they have their own chaotic experience, dealing with their own supply chain and their own customers and trying to be good partners to their customers. And so, it is interesting to help people with these challenges and figure out like just how to make it better for everyone. Yeah,

Matt Traino: I think you’d take that experience you just had with your customer, and you multiply it by thousands and that’s those conversations are going on every day. Right. And so, it doesn’t seem like there’s, there’s going to be any change in this level of demand for awhile

Justin Smith: Without a doubt. Well, Matt, it’s been real. I appreciate you making yourself available and sharing your experience and what you see out there and helping us understand the marketplace and it’s all. Awesome. I’m glad you’re out there, out in the fight with us.

Matt Traino: Yeah, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. And hopefully we’ll get to do some business soon.

Justin Smith: See you later Matt.

Matt Traino: All right, take care.