Industrial Insights with David Hickey

David Hickey 00:42

Justin, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be on your podcast.

David Hickey 01:29

Yeah, great, thank you. And you know, as we work. with our clients and we work alongside partners and as we drive forward. And there are so many factors that come into the ultimate site decision. Real estate, of course, being one of those. But as you look through labor and labor and operations and supply chain, logistics, business climate, all of these different factors that come into play and even more, and you notice in the reports is the power and utility side is as important and as front and center as ever before. And one of those factors as well and should be considered and evaluated and really any, you know, as we look at real estate and location decisions, it's a business decision. And so, you know, really when you look at incentives, it's a way to help, you know, a partner and perhaps strengthen the deal, strengthen the business case, you know, develop that partnership with whatever the other entities might be. If it's, you know, from the federal level, the state, provincial, the county, the city, the regional organizations, the utility as well and certainly expand on that also. you know, incentives are never going to make a bad location a good location. And many people have heard that before and their reason that certain incentives are in place and why they're driven. what they really can provide is that that partnership again, and I'll use that word a few times, I'm sure, you know, to really make sure that it is is a project that is going to go forward and it's going to be great for the community. It's going to be great for the constituency and around there. the jobs and the investment and the tax revenues, everything to build out. And then also to help the business case go forward. Shouldn't be driven on the business case. It should be among all of the different factors that are in place, but certainly considered on it and the ways that they can be utilized, whether it's a tax abatement, it's a tax exemption, it's a direct cash grant, a long-term, a forgivable loan or rate reduction, all of that's on the potentially on the table to really, again, help that, help move that project forward. that investment in the future and from the community perspective and the economic developer is to help ensure that it's a project that they're excited about that they can be a partner for and really help drive forward and not into a year or two years ahead but really as a long-term partnership and commitment to that site and to that location.

David Hickey 04:39

Yeah, well, I think It all comes down to in part of what what our job is and our kind of industry. niche in the world is to cut out the perception and any bias that might be there or any kind of, know, what someone may think of a particular state or location or programs or even the business climate in, you know, a particular jurisdiction. And it's to really be able to cut through it. think even in your home state of California, know, there are many that don't think there are incentives. You know, there are programs that are out there to help.

David Hickey 05:15

But We are doing a lot of work as you are in the state. And there are incentives that are there to help and to really help maintain and drive that investment in the state of California. They're developed in a way to California and through the legislature and the governor's office and then down to the local levels, to hit those core drivers that the state of California and the constituency wants to push for, but that they are there. ultimately as we look through and as any good real estate brokers as well as partners. It's really being able to cut what is the true strategy of the business, the vision of the business, and then be able to bring the facts and model the scenarios and across the board to help make that decision. And we are doing quite a bit of it today where we're looking at that existing site or that existing portfolio and does it work and does it work the proper way? If there's a lease expiring coming up, that's an opportunity not just for real estate. decision, but for a business decision as well. And, you know, what are the true facts? A company is going to know their site better than anybody else. Are there labor challenges? You know, are there supply chain traffic issues, other things that come in line? there power risks to the power, the reliability? What might be their rising prices, rising costs in other different ways? And so looking at it and being able to take that, but then also provide the facts and the analytics behind it. And, you know, when it comes to incentives is, you what is that? that true value, the opportunity to it. Also what are some of those commitments that might come to capture those incentives as well?

David Hickey 07:58

Yeah, you know, and as we talk about, we'll call that sometimes website incentives. And, you know, when companies or other partners and you review what's on what's on the website, whether that's a state or the community. Yeah. So what they list and you know, there's there's a lot and it all depends on

David Hickey 08:17

what that entity is, the organization that's posting that information and how detailed or not detailed they may put it in. And that's really one of our biggest roles is in responsibilities in the process is to identify what is possible out there. And what are some of those existing programs that are in place in a California perspective and in that with the California competes tax credit program, there's the employment training panel or training project on the utility side with different rate riders, but there's a number of other programs and policies out there that can be potentially utilized and leveraged. And so for our job is to really understand what is the business, what is the asset type, what is the investment, the jobs, everything that's going to go forward, the scope overall of the project. And then how is that business structured? How is that business going to be structured into the future? And what of some of those programs that might be listed, others that aren't? listed or maybe somewhere else or from other agencies or even from the federal government. And, you know, while we'll talk about, some of the big programs like the CHIPS Act and the Inflation Reduction Act and others, but other programs that are out there that the perhaps doesn't run directly through the company, but perhaps even making sure that that county or that that city, you know, can also leverage some of those dollars to be able to utilize for things like infrastructure and job training and other programs as well. then Further from that is, as I mentioned before, some of the commitments that might be there to capture some of these different incentives or secure them, and as well as what the true value is. So when you look at a great example is in California with the California Compete Tax Credit. a competitive program, can be incredibly influential for projects and keeping and has been successful in retaining and expanding investment, particularly in manufacturing and R &D and other areas in the state. But one of the challenges with it is it is a it's considered a non refundable tax credit And so in order to utilize the incentive you have to have tax liability in the state of California in order to do so There are some opportunities to carry it forward but but that's another big area where you know oftentimes if a company is doing it on their own or you know Someone in a partner that isn't as experienced in the area You know to be able to look at that and to be able to understand and and also you know, what is the process to get there? that particular program again is a competitive, it's a multiple application round and steps to get there. And so also understanding, know, what is it going to take to get there? What are the resources we need internally? And then after the fact, after we've gone through the process and through, you know, all the different steps is the post side as well. So ensuring that the business has the compliance and administration of those incentives in place to be able to do that. I mean, there are some stats as high as 73 % percent of incentives that are awarded in the US are never actually received by companies. And a of that is not because the government entity or the regional economic development group, whatever it might be, doesn't follow through with what they're going to do or that the company doesn't meet it. Oftentimes it might just be that those compliance mechanisms aren't in place. And it's not something to be overly fearful of. It's just literally having the resources, bandwidth, tracking milestones. Everyone has turnover in their facilities, in their team, in their tax

David Hickey 11:46

tax team and operations, finance, whatever it might be. And so making sure that those, you you have some of those mechanisms in place. And again, sometimes there can be onerous with the data requests and needs to be strategically done as far as the timing, but sometimes it could be just simply. filling out four rows of a single spreadsheet and just getting that submitted on time and getting that in place. so, you know, certainly again, an area to, to focus on if you are considering incentives is, is how you're going to navigate it as you go forward in order to ensure that you receive it. And, know, again, minimize risk because missing some of those could have respect to the business as well.

David Hickey 13:11

Yeah. it's not a... it shouldn't be a detriment to pursuing incentives. know, one of the major, and we do some different surveying of CFOs and other C-suite and executives and corporate real estate executives, of why not to pursue incentives or why don't they consider them. And sometimes that is a reason, is because of all the compliance and the risk afterwards. And it's just, it is more of something of understanding what it's going to take. And while you're going through that incentives process from the very beginning is identifying what are you know some of those commitments what are some of those performance metrics that we're gonna hit and what are some of those milestones that are gonna be required and economic development partners and government officials and others they want to work with you to get it get it through but they have you know sometimes it's strictly code that comes from the legislative branch of the assembly or the rule makers as they put it forward and those need to be met and so just you know again understanding what those are they're not meant to be obstructive they're not meant to be onerous, but just having that, that process in place and identifying and where we come in and help on that. and we've doing that for over 30 years is, is, you know, being that extra resource when it's needed. you know, sometimes it's, it's being an extension of the team and, know, we'll, we'll be the one that reaches out to their HR internal partners or operations or real estate and everybody be to get that investment, the canceled checks or the, the payroll data, whatever it might be. Or just internally having a function and there's certain times of year when it is, when these reports are due, but to then build out what are those and even just a reminder, hey, here's a milestone that's coming up, a quarterly payroll report that needs to be submitted to a county, for example. Again, it's not onerous, it's data that you have, but just getting ahead of it and planning and preparing for when that time comes.

David Hickey 15:23

Yep. But I'll tell you there is in our major hats off to our compliance team. We get more unsolicited thank you emails and notes from our clients towards our to our compliance team than anyone else because it is, you know, where they come in and they save and rescue some of these because again, there's turnover. You know, maybe they get, you know, there's a new CFO that comes in and we had helped through the front end and they were taking it on and there's turnover. They get a letter from the county saying, you missed this, this, you know, particular report and then, you know, call us right away and, and, know, come in and, know, sometimes, I mean, we're talking millions of dollars, you know, in, in credits and, grants and other performance post performance side, to be able to capture and credit. And so it's, you know, it's just, again, it's, it's a critical step to the overall process. It's not when the deal's done, you don't walk away. you know, as we come in and, there are some clients where, it's, it's, oftentimes on a performance perspective, it could be three or five or property tax payments sometimes might be say 10 years, but it gets sent further. I do, we have clients that we extend and we will be supporting for 26 years based on, based on their abatement schedule. And so it's, you know, it's exciting to be a part of it. And again, help them through that process because they've earned it. You know, they, they hit those performance metrics, you know, the state, the community has set aside. you know, that money to go to it as part of their partnership and their co-investment into the project. And so it's just, you know, making sure those different steps and that compliance is in place.

David Hickey 17:25

Yeah, dude. Yes, so it is it is a competitive process. is typically there's there's three application rounds. There are three week windows each fiscal year and it comes in a form of tax credit. So the state will set aside a certain amount that they will put towards the program. And, you know, typically in a growth scenario. So you're you're adding jobs, you're making investment. It's in an industry or a priority target for the state. And that that can change, you know, during for each fiscal year. And then there is an approval process. so you get through, there's multiple rounds to the steps through it. It's not automatic, there's no rubber stamp to it. But ways that you can prepare for the application and understand what are some of those target targets and what we'll do is help work together with the business and is this something worth pursuing? The timing of the project. When is it going to go forward? And what are some of those commitments to make in order to?

David Hickey 18:59

Yeah, and that's it. That's a very important and just think for making that point because it is it is more and more of the investment as we're seeing all the incentives. It doesn't have to be a major move. It doesn't have to be a relocation and expansion at an existing facility is certainly an opportunity and a trigger for many incentives across the country and around the world. You know, whether it's it's new jobs, it's new investment, it's you're increasing your power requirements and looking at at, you know, utility. incentives for that as well. you know, in fact, we look at a lot of our, our, our project work today and pipelines, a lot of it is investment into the footprint and, a lot of companies as, as they're looking at, you know, where to go, where to grow, where their customer demand is shifts in logistics strategies, you know, raw materials inbound outbound, you know, out of that is, is looking at, well we have say four facilities across the U S that, that create or manufacture this particular product line, where does it make sense to make that investment? And of course that then becomes a competitive between some of those sites or between the states that it might be in or the communities. And so looking at it from the incentives. And while sometimes some of these incentives, I mentioned earlier, they're written out of code or rulemaking that gets promulgated after the assembly hands it down, where it's a square peg and a round hole to make it work for an expansion, but more and of these incentives and when you work through it and understand that value, know, certainly where those are opportunities can can be there and be significant, you know, to really help that investment. And again, from a economic developer perspective, you know, as as exciting as it is to I think most mayors in this country have the hard hat and the big scissors ready in the office to cut that that ribbon that the shovel I'm sure there's a shovel in your one of the corners behind you.

David Hickey 20:59

somewhere as well. But, you know, it is it is just as important, if not more in today's environment for retention and to retain those jobs, to retain that investment, retain the tax revenues, you know, for those businesses. And if you look at, think one of the biggest trends in economic development is that BRNE, so that business retention and expansion strategy, you know, and how can they support businesses to continue to expand? You know, it's great to get new business, you know, and new companies and

David Hickey 21:29

industries and sectors, also retaining what you have today and utilizing some of the tools and resources like incentives to be able to help those companies. Not only growing. Yeah, it is, you know, and.

David Hickey 21:48

community by community unit, their different priorities and their prerogatives, which is the way it should be. But right, so how they can leverage the tools that they have to support those companies. it's incredibly... to see how often companies don't utilize those resources or don't even know they're there when they're looking at some of these projects and some of these different investments that they make at their existing facilities.

David Hickey 22:28

So utilities are, you know, they want to also retain and as well as grow the businesses that they have within their territories. And, you know, they have, it depends across the country, you know, which, what different programs or what different tools those utilities might have. You know, certainly most of them have something along energy efficiency side. So if you're investing in LED lighting in the facility, you're looking at, you know, some of the new EV chargers or some of the appliances.

David Hickey 23:02

Four panels on it, right? So yes, a lot of it from the energy efficiency, renewables and incentivizing those types of programs. And in some states where there might be a renewable portfolio standard or clean energy directive to them to be able to hit those targets and those goals and to help their resident businesses with that. But they're also looking at a new charge and expanding in overall being a partner in economic development. And so as we see some of these utilities, across the country, some like the Tennessee Valley Authority, TVA, or Duke, or Florida Power and Light, and others that are really becoming more of that economic development team as well.

David Hickey 23:47

Yeah. Yeah, so they are they are also there and they have they have teams they have experienced professionals that are coming from economic development space You know to help drive business and help again be part of that team Whether they're bolt-on to just you know help strengthen, you know for especially for industrial clients and industrial users But also bringing, know some of their tools to it and when you look at, California So they have what's called a utility rate rider that a lot of the utilities can utilize they all have different allocations each utility will look at how they allocate, what some of those performance targets might be, the timing, the application process between a San Diego Gas and Electric and SoCal Edison and PG &E and others, how they approach it. And it's important to understand as you're looking at which territory they're in and how to navigate that process. And again, we can talk about some of the timing of when to do it. But a good back of the envelope for those is say at a 12 % production on your utility rates over a five year period. It's kind of a good just quick back of the envelope for California specific as you look at it. in other parts of the country and say in Tennessee Valley Authority and TVA territory where they provide direct grants for jobs that doesn't necessarily tie specifically to the utility use and to the rates but even just recognizing that the growth and retention of the businesses within their territory and as partners, you know, is only going to be better for their business, for their communities as they go forward. And utilities have different charges and, you know, kind of different missions across the country as well. And so, you know, how they come in and how they partner on these projects and not to shift away from incentives per se, but utilities are also becoming a much more important and critical partner in the overall site selection process, especially when it comes to industrial users because of the extended demand and this unprecedented demand for power, some of the challenges when it comes to capacity and generation. so whether it's from that capacity and the capacity side, from the demand side, the equipment, transmission equipment.

David Hickey 26:18

And all of those where they become absolutely vital partners in ensuring in the near term, what does that phase one impact and the power requirements and going forward, but into the longer term as well, what that is. And data centers certainly get a lot of attention with that and even some of the nuclear conversation. Yeah.

David Hickey 27:04

Yeah, and it's incredible where the, know, certainly one of the biggest trends is the utility, you know, having the utility as a partner at the table in the process much sooner, you know, than they may have been historically because of how important it is, you know, to, again, to ensure the power, ensure the transmission, you know, looking further on the water, the wastewater side, you know, where they come in and how they participate in the project and in the ultimate deal in the end as well. well to make sure that it happens. you know, so certainly encourage one of those is, you know, there's when to bring them in, but to ensure that, you you do when that, when that time is right throughout the process and ensuring that that power is we hear all too often where these projects, the land, the site, labor, everything looks great. You go to it and then, and maybe even get options or control the land and then go to the utility. And the utility is scratching their head because they you know, they just cannot provide that power to the site or you know It's gonna be so long. I hear just heard it again a couple days ago that you know for some transmission equipment It's taking you know, the expected time frame of delivery is 60 months And so this thing I draw is that you know, does that sound better than five years? But realistically, these are some of those core factors that we have to look at and then that doesn't even talk about you know, some of the local business and and political and community climate when it comes to power and land use as well. is certainly there's always been input, community input critical to any project and long-term success and partnership, but maybe a bit louder today and more engaged than ever before.

David Hickey 29:08

Yes, it's a great question. it varies across certainly across states and across down to the very local as local level as you can get to NIMBY to not my backyard, literally the next door neighbor. But a lot of it when it comes when it comes to power.

David Hickey 29:29

So as part of that, comes with that extended demand from it. you look at what is that going to mean from our near and long term capacity? And one of the challenges, say from a data center perspective and what we're increasingly going to hear is part of it is they're not necessarily large job creators as opposed to, say, a manufacturing facility. And so if you look at it or you have different metrics of a job per acre, whatever that might be. And so, you and you've had those arguments and certainly in some communities that in California as well, where you don't have, you know, you might not have as much land as you have in other parts of the country, or some of that land use where, know, is this the best use for that land? And those conversations have been going on forever. But now with the power side is we're running out of power is, or at least in the near term and midterm, you know, is this the best use for that power going forward and utilizing it? and as we try to figure out into the future. And as parts of this country, and retiring fossil fuel plants, and other places where we're actually pulling down the power, and some of the great opportunity of renewables, but also some of the challenges that are there with it. And technology is rapidly progressing. It's an incredibly exciting time to see the innovation and what's going on. And just mention the micronuclear conversations between the likes of Google. and Amazon's just this week, Microsoft as well, are unbelievable, but those take time.

David Hickey 31:10

But. But for some of it, it takes years to be able to get it on online and in place. so it's just doing that and not to take a political position either way or some of the rhetoric there. it's really making sure that within these strategy, within the location and real estate decisions, but especially the business decision is making sure doing all of this due diligence on the front end instead of finding these things out later. you're there.

David Hickey 31:54

It's incredibly exciting to see what has gone on across the country when it comes to semiconductors and when it comes to the drive from the fabrications and that particular facility, the TSMC in North Phoenix, as well as Intel and Intel building a second fab in. in Chandler and all the developments and growth that's there. And they've been in this, you know, we've had some at Conductor, some call it the Silicon Desert here in Phoenix for, you know, a generation plus. And with CSMC, incredibly exciting in the amount of jobs and, you know, 10,000 plus jobs that will come and just for the site and the construction work and everything that's come in, but all the long-term growth that's come with it. But there are certainly a lot of challenges when it comes to some of that infrastructure, when it comes to the utility usage and, the water and the wastewater and all of that is going forward. Now, thankfully, you know, again, technology and innovation and industrial users, especially of that size and capacity understand that. And they don't want to come into a situation where, you know, there's a scarce resource and so ways that they can come through. There's a recent announcement of ASML and some of their investments and on the wafer side in in the valley here and, you know, really the direction on the wastewater and even on you know, some of the data centers in Mesa here again, that, know, have turned more to a power requirement than a water requirement as they work to cool their facilities and their centers. Now, of course, that means instead of water, it's power is the challenge. And so, you know, seeing what is, you know, some of the proactive that Salt River Project utility is doing down here, you know, with renewables and with battery storage and all that as well. But one of the very interesting things and just something that we have to think about, can we talk about data? centers and cold storage and others as power users, know, if that and if the TSMC facility gets to six fab plants. it will require over a gigawatt of power in its load, about 1.2 or so. The nuclear power plant, Palo Verde in the West Valley is about four as where it runs. And so if you think about what, and that is the most powerful power producing nuclear power plant in the United States. So it would take about 30 % of the power from that plant alone. Now it's not just pulling from that plant, a lot of other sources, sources coming online as they ramp that facility up. But just think,

David Hickey 34:24

about what that and the real swath and the unbelievable amount of power that it will take to get there. a lot of they're doing internal and again from a continuity and their own due diligence through the process. But that power plant is not just relied on for Arizona and Maricopa County. California, certainly you all have some of that power and through the Rocky Mountain States and beyond. so, but just to think about how significant of a user that is, to be able to get there and drive it. But I recommend anyone that wants to see. manufacturing and ground up dirt and land and nerds out on it like we do Justin to see the cranes that are going in that facility and all over the valley, you know, with some of these major mega industrial projects going on. It is certainly an interesting and amazing site and kudos to Arizona and the state and some of the state planning ahead, you know, building highways like the 303 in advance, you know, knowing that this investment is coming in the future. you know is is. It is incredible to see and it's it's you some of what the West.

David Hickey 35:43

you know, some of the Western states, the advantage that they have that, know, the East Coast or some Midwestern communities don't have because the growth is already in there. They're locked and, you know, as growth built out, we're, you know, trying to get ahead of it. And so from, and getting ahead of that from infrastructure, but still, again, making sure and doing that due diligence throughout the process. And I'm sure as you did with your client to land there in the West Valley.

David Hickey 37:11

We'll do it. Thank you, Justin. as an accomplished author yourself. It's an honor to know that as you're reading and taking value from our reports and our thought leadership. it's just been something over our many years, we've been in business for just about 40 years and providing that thought leadership and getting that out there in different areas. And not just to talk through real estate or site selection, but again, reach out to some of that, the economic development community and others that sometimes those conversations don't happen. and so trying to provide that in there. our latest report that we just released running out of power is really a conversation about lot of what we just talked about. And what's causing, what is the so what of what we're talking about from transmission and demand and capacity, but then also what are.

David Hickey 38:03

What are states and communities doing and what are some of those solutions that they can provide in the near term working alongside the utilities as well and other stakeholders? And then also what is kind of those actionable strategies that roadmap that businesses need to be considering as well? And in their due diligence as they're looking at new communities, sites, markets, and across the board, what are some of those ways to look as they go forward, but then also at their existing footprint, understanding what is that power use. talk about some of the crazy things we hear sometimes from clients of ensuring that they truly on the power side. Certainly something we hear from our economic development partners and utilities as well as the unbelievable requests that they get today. But really making sure that those power utility requirements and others are truly as they build up and as time and in the face to what they need. then so you said it's available on our website and then the report last month was really focused on incentives. And, you know, it's one of those we've done for years. I think it was our 19th edition of our credits and incentives update and really focusing on the U.S. and what's going on across incentives and not necessarily, you know, hey, here are the big projects. Here's what they got. But more towards, you know, what do businesses, what do do real estate partners, what do communities, what is going on across? What are those key trends? What do they need to be tracking across? And even some things, you know, there's when we went from before COVID annually, was probably about 60 billion US dollars that were put on incentives the way we've been talking about incentives today, traditional. 60 billion today, that number is about two trillion. Now, a lot of that is COVID money. So that was built out in first in a recovery or really emergency into recovery, relief, and then into stimulus. And as we're looking at it,

David Hickey 40:05

the EPP funds, the CARES Act, the American Rescue Plan, you know, and the funding in it. Now, there's been newer programs since then that have been built out like the CHIPS Act and Inflation Reduction Act, which is billions of dollars in itself as well. Europe, other parts of the world have also responded in, especially when it comes to some of the CHIPS and green and sustainability investments as well. More significant, again, from a perception perspective, far more significant than many understand Europe to have in that case. But one of things to be tracked, and we talk about this in the report is, is calling a fiscal cliff. So the American Rescue Plan Act, for example, provided 350 billion in state and local, not to get too wonky here, but coronavirus recovery funds. And those funds were allocated by formula to states, to counties, cities, tribal nations, other entities to be spent on one on recovery from the pandemic, but then also help build up and resiliency going forward. And so those programs could be used for economic development, infrastructure, workforce development, other uses. And we saw many of those communities and states leverage that. California was an example. mentioned that California competes tax credit earlier. They actually were able to take some of the federal dollars from that and have grant programs because there are challenges with that incentive and then being a tax credit and having to have that liability. And so if there's a cash grant, you know, it's certainly more

David Hickey 41:35

companies could take advantage of it and it's a different way of value and can be utilized by business. And so Governor Newsom was able to leverage some of those dollars. Well, Florida is another example, Governor DeSantis and one of their infrastructure, the Job Growth Grant Fund, also leveraging probably $150 million in the end to help fund that program. Well, the challenge with that program now from that perspective is it needs to be used and it runs out at the end of this year. And so most of that money has been utilized. in those two examples, California and Florida are no longer available for budgetary reasons. So the grant no longer exists in the state.

David Hickey 42:19

and some of the budget challenges now post all of this. And so important to recognize because there are some, that $2 trillion figure won't stay there for long and forever. just to date, you know, we talked about the CHIPS Act and inflation reduction and things that folks should be understanding and recognizing as more of that money continues to roll out and drive forward. And then really a full swath across all the states, local communities, the territories, tribal nations as well of what some of those key trends are. And certainly, you when we talk about compliance and we talk about return on investment, ensuring those are there, but also, you some of the programs I earlier mentioned on expansion and, you know, something to consider is not all incentives need to have job creation. Jobs are of course a core KPI when it comes to how incentives are worked and how economic developers are kind of their metrics. But it doesn't always require that because again, that investment into a facility, you know, helps that overall retention. and sustainability of that site. so incentives that maybe jobs don't have to be a part of it, can't necessarily cut jobs, but not necessarily add jobs to be able to capture some of those incentives. So we talked through a number of those trends as well in the report. And that's also available on our website for download. And we also just did a webinar on that. And so that's available online. we'll do another, we will do one for the power report as well. And we have some exciting reports to follow. here yet this year as well.

David Hickey 44:37

Yeah, so mean, the earlier the better in the process as the business is going through their strategic decisions. And I know, Justin, you are a strategic partner when it comes to your clients and looking at all these factors, not just incentives, but labor and supply chain and power and all these others that we've mentioned that come into play for the business, real estate being one of those. so looking at it as early as possible as you're strategic, especially as you're considering multiple states or sites or existing facilities even, is to make sure you are looking at and evaluating enough in advance that it can all be part of that decision process. that, know, before you make your final decision, yes, and certainly

David Hickey 45:22

Incentives are supposed to induce you to make a decision as well. So always consider if you've made a decision, if you've created a job, you've made the investment, it's probably too late, you know, or may compromise some incentives still might be worth the evaluation because there are programs, there are certain ones that, that can look back. but, know, we really highly encouraged to, to always try to, you know, get ahead of, those final decisions, those lease signings, you know, those, those major. investments or putting equipment in place and other different elements and we can certainly help advise on when that is and when that right time is to at least again start that evaluation of understanding what's possible and how that could impact that business decision going forward.

David Hickey 46:18

Justin, truly enjoyed it. Thank you again, and look forward to the next time.

David Hickey 46:25

Take care.