Industrial Insights with Neal Perry

Neal Perry 00:32

Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

Neal Perry 00:39

We definitely do. I don't know, I couldn't really take a guess. Millions of square feet. Just a little background on myself. I've been in the industry since 2000 and I started industry coatings in 2008. So we've been around a little bit. Mostly what we do is, I would say medium to large industrial commercial warehousing.

Neal Perry 01:08

Like I said, millions of square feet over the years. I've never counted. It would be interesting to try and figure that out. But millions, we do have a fair amount of buildings.

Neal Perry 01:20

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Neal Perry 01:29

that's a long story. You don't have time on the podcast for that. But basically, my family's been in the industry for quite some time. My grandfather started in the industry. My dad took that company over. My family still kind of works together. We've separated out a little bit, so we all have our own different companies. and I would say I tried to avoid the industry as long as possible just because of it being with family but eventually I got sucked in there and I do love aspects of it. I love the project managing and bidding the projects and stuff like that and really like problem solving because you would think it's all the same. It's paint. Every job is identical. It is definitely not. Even though you see these big box tilt ups going up, you think, well, that's just repetitive.

Neal Perry 02:18

It's really not. Things are constantly changing in the industry, materials, and I think that's for everybody too, not just the painting industry. I'm sure you've seen some things change over time. So you're constantly problem solving and just trying to help the generals out and the owners out and the tenants out. And so that's kind of where I landed and it's been good for me. I like it.

Neal Perry 02:54

Yeah, so really the paints have changed a lot since I started and that's really from, you know, California mandating things, AQMD. And so the manufacturers are constantly having to, I would say, reformulate the paints. And then really the guys in the field are having to almost relearn how to apply those paints so they look good. They're constantly changing. So once you think you have it down and they look really good, they don't, things change, you know. Especially during COVID, I feel like there was a lot of, I would say, you know, manufacture problems, them getting raw materials and things like that. So that threw a wrench in things for sure. So I feel like we're just now coming out of that. We're getting things back to where they were. Paints are looking fairly good. You know, raw materials are coming in. So that helps a lot. But yeah, that's one of the things that I think everyone had a problem with and has to learn. I know like when we're painting, walls inside of a building like gypsum board walls those guys are being mandated to use a lot of recycled materials so the paper is not

Neal Perry 04:21

Yes.

Neal Perry 04:43

Yeah, we see a lot of like lead projects, you know, and they're looking for that. So luckily for me, most of the materials that we use now are, you know, by California mandate, zero VOC. So it's not really that hard to meet the lead on my end. They just need the paperwork from us is all. So that's kind of fairly easy for me to reach.

Neal Perry 05:22

Yeah, the scheduling, you know, where if you're doing a new construction building, we're jumping around a lot. Typically we'll, we'll start working on one side, as opposed to the building as a whole, you know, they'll, they'll tilt panels on one side and we'll start on that side first and then move to the other side. We're doing it in phases. Really? A lot of these guys, I feel like have tenants already, so they're trying to close out portions of the building. So again, scheduling, you know, but that's, that's a lot on really who's coming into the building, what their timeline is, and the general contractor dictates that a lot. Where we're repainting the buildings. you know, that just depends a lot on us schedule wise and what the tenants available for us to work on. We have done some, let's say some occupied Amazon work, which is very difficult. I'm sure you know that we're jumping around a lot where we're doing maybe, maybe four truck bays at a time, wash, patch, paint, you know, and then moving on so that it's much more difficult and time consuming.

Neal Perry 06:30

Yes. Yes.

Neal Perry 06:45

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, sure. So typically I'll see it as a bit invite, you know.

Neal Perry 07:16

Yeah, not too much on the bidding side. I like to say the plans are the plans. So if someone makes a mistake, you know, it's really, I don't know who that really falls back to most of the time, probably the architect or something missing. But on my end, I don't see a lot of huge mistakes or misses. So basically I see it as a bid invite, you know, we'll provide a number to a general or two or three or four will be bidding the same project. You know, we'll be awarded the project and then we'll really start in on initially the submittal process. So we'll give them drawdowns and that'll go back and get spread around to the general, the owners, the, you know, the architect for approval. Once we get those approved, we'll get out on site and do what we call a mock-up. So we'll put the actual material on the building so everyone can see it and agree on it. And then yeah, the general is mostly responsible for scheduling. again, I'll probably see on the late end of the project, you know, so I'll come out and we'll start washing, prepping, priming on the project. And usually that takes. anywhere from whatever if we're doing a million square footers it's probably a you know three to six month process depending on what they want to do out there.

Neal Perry 08:45

Yes, yeah, so we do, I would say we do work from San Diego all the way up to Northern California. So we do span a wide area. Mostly, yes, in I would say San Bernardino County seems like they're building a bunch there. We're in Paris a lot. LA not so much, but there are some things popping up in LA as far as new construction. got that area is kind of built out. But yes, Hesperia seems to be a new new location where things are popping up, especially I would call the big boys, you know, these are these are million plus square foot buildings that are popping up out there.

Neal Perry 09:33

Yeah.

Neal Perry 09:55

Yeah, yeah. We don't see a lot of changes in color. These guys pretty much have them down pat. follow, you know, they have their own spec. so that usually doesn't create a lot of changes for myself. They've already hashed that out, you know? So unless somebody really doesn't like something, an owner, we don't really see a lot of changes in it. We'll do a mock-up and it usually gets approved pretty fast.

Neal Perry 10:42

for sure and you can get a wide variety of specs too depending on who is the developer of the building. I would say the majority of people will list a color but they don't exactly list a material that they want. So you have I would say the majority of people are not listing the material just a color but then you have people like let's say Rexford which know exactly what they want. So you're really sticking to a hard spec there where they're using you know top end materials and very dark colors typically. you know, on these new buildings, which also can create a problem in itself on the design aspect.

Neal Perry 11:44

Yeah, for sure doesn't. one of the things that not a lot of people know is the colors like blue, reds, and yellows, those colors especially. When they're made, they're made in a clear base. So the paint comes as clear and they shoot the tint into the paint. So what happens is over time that fades really fast because the only thing that's producing the color is the tint that's in the paint. So that fades out really fast. Blacks not so much because they come as a base already as a black. So most of the paint will come in a light, medium, and dark base that's tintable. So the object is to just put a little bit of color in it and that's going to get you longevity out of it. So when you're going with these colors that are really bright blues, reds especially, yellows, those colors just don't last. I mean, I typically see them, you know, a year and they're not looking great, you know.

Neal Perry 12:50

Well, black and red, because that's the company colors. Yeah, for sure. But you can do things like use. Yes, you can do things like use higher end materials, which will last longer. You can do things like find a red based material so you're not shooting just a bunch of colorant into it and they will last you longer.

Neal Perry 13:29

Yeah. It seems like we're putting up a lot of black right now and I mean and heavy black too. I mean a lot of the building being black. It used to be just bands and now it's like literally the whole building which is kind of crazy. I guess we'll find out if that ends up heating up the building. There's a whole other aspect of the building heating and cooling. So when especially too in Southern California what happens is these these buildings they can get wet you know and so when the sun comes out they heat up quickly.

Neal Perry 14:04

and that produces cracks in the building. we'll see how well that holds out and time to come I guess because we just started putting up a lot of black recently.

Neal Perry 14:20

Not a whole lot. Not a whole lot. It's Southern California. We're not getting, you know, we're not getting a lot of rain. It doesn't, I would say it really doesn't affect us a whole bunch. You know, what happens is we'll just turn to interior work if we get a couple of days of rain. And typically it's light rain. So, and if we're repainting a building, we'll hold off for a couple of days to kind of let it dry out. So it doesn't affect us a whole bunch.

Neal Perry 14:53

I think those guys have a whole different ballgame. Yes, areas where they're getting rain and snow. And I think those guys specifically might stack work that's interior only for those periods of time. But for us in Southern California, we really don't do that. We'll paint anything at any time, really.

Neal Perry 15:31

that's really hard. I thought you might ask me that. so you know what it I don't really have a budget rule of thumb number as far as square footage and I think what people like to do maybe owners they'll take a floor square footage but really that means nothing to me because the building can be a lot taller a lot shorter there can be a ton of metal canopies no metal canopies people are turned into like a lucabond you know so that's not painted they have a lot of a lot more pre-finished surfaces it seems like so

Neal Perry 16:07

those numbers can... Yeah, it's like a powder coating pre-finished surface that they're using for canopies and stuff like that. it's really the numbers can be all over the map. I feel like there is no budgetary number that would, you know, really get you to where you needed to be.

Neal Perry 16:29

for sure, yeah. If I had one, I'd give it to you.

Neal Perry 16:36

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, First off, we gotta evaluate the building and, you know, so we'll go out, we'll take a look at the building and see what's happening to it. Does it have cracks in it? Is it chalking? Is it peeling? We have fixed a fair amount of work where, just like anything, I would guess you get what you pay for, you know? So we're... Some owners have taken some cheaper bids and it's not lasting even a year and it's peeling off the building. A lot of that has to do with the chalking, is what we call efflorescence, which is like minerals that are in the concrete. So those start to seep out of the building. And if you really don't get that off or use a product to lock that in before you put a finish coat on, it's kind of, you've done all that work for nothing. It's just going to start coming off. So we have fixed a couple of those. The thing is you really want to get out and evaluate what you're painting first. know, make sure that...

Neal Perry 18:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Neal Perry 18:17

Yeah. Yeah. Some of it gets pretty heavy. Most of that you see in, I would say, a block that's not painted, you know, or aggregate, which we're not seeing a lot on buildings right now. Obviously that was hot a long time ago, probably before our time. But you really want to evaluate the building. You really want to do great prep work on a repaint, you know, so your customer's getting that longevity out of the material and it's not just sheeting off down the road.

Neal Perry 19:04

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so tell me about that. What were they doing with the backer rod and the drilling?

Neal Perry 19:43

Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. So that's another thing that we'll evaluate on repaint buildings is the joints. And it's typical that I would say owners and tenants are not redoing joints for a very long time. I think if you look at the data sheets on them, it really says they're only good for, you know, five to seven years before you need to replace. I hardly see that. So as long as the joints have been painted over, primed and painted over,

Neal Perry 20:26

And if you touch them and they're kind of, they have a little bounce to them, a little give, they're still good. And in a situation like that, we would just repair anything that needed to be repaired, anything that's pulling away from, from the building itself. Or you can see daylight through, obviously not great. You're going to get water intrusion in there. So those, would come back and just, and, and, fill those back in as opposed to.

Neal Perry 20:49

tearing them out completely, replacing the back rod and replacing the joint compound over the top.

Neal Perry 21:01

All sorts of it from buildings that have most of the new buildings will have some fine settling cracks You know that we can easily fix We'll use some something we call the lasso patch that we put over the top It's basically like caulking and in like a bucket form that they knife on to fill those cracks all the way to Right now we have a couple jobs going where they're they're literally chasing the crack like you said and an epoxy injecting the crack so it's a more severe crack where you're not really gonna paint's not gonna cover that crack and It's too wide for the elasto patch to fix that so we have someone come in chase the joints epoxy inject it and then we'll come back over that patch and smooth that out. It's a better system. It's costly to do that, to chase those cracks.

Neal Perry 21:56

Yeah, yeah, you have to. But, you know, that's, guess, a part of maintenance too, is if you keep up on the buildings and you're painting every three to five years, you're not really going to run into that situation where you have these cracks that are so wide that you have, you know, to cut them out and epoxy inject them, you know. So maintenance is important to keep up on so you're not getting that.

Neal Perry 22:26

Yeah. It ain't no thing, but I always advise against it, especially if they're not painted on a building. So roll-up doors, come pre-finished powder-coated. That coating is just superior to something we're gonna be able to put it out in the field. if they're not... painted I like to leave them you can wash them down really easily once you start painting them then you got to think about it you created a maintenance problem you know so now you're having to repaint them yes exactly especially on a building that's you know a million two million square feet you're seeing hundreds of roll-up doors so it's a lot of extra cost in the building to repaint those

Neal Perry 23:18

Don't do it. Yeah, exactly. It's the same concept. You're going to have to continually keep up on that, which is going to be dollars, you know?

Neal Perry 23:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's a variety of products out that you can use. Yeah, they don't seem to do a whole bunch. There's a variety of products you can use of anegraphy systems that you can put on, sacrificial, non-sacrificial, if you're really having a graffiti issue. It's nice. So.

Neal Perry 24:07

The sacrificial graffiti coating would mean Once you get graffitied, okay you the process to come out and clean it that Anti-graffiti coating would actually come off of the building with the graffiti. So it's basically Sacrificing itself right and then you have to go reapply the coating again over the top The non sacrificial is is stays on the building. So that's more of something where you would come out you would spray it, you know a solution

Neal Perry 24:37

on there, let it dissolve and then you can wash or wipe it off the building. The problem is is that I see is a lot of the anagraphy that's being like, let's say mandated by the cities right now, they're going eight to 10 foot high or that first reveal. Well, If you've driven around and looked at some buildings, they're not really graffitiing that eight to 10 foot high anymore. They seem to be doing something with fire hoses, it seems like, where they're all over the building and it's 20 to 30 foot tall on the building. So kind of defeats the purpose.

Neal Perry 25:25

Yeah, yeah. No, I have a couple buildings that we finished in Compton recently that are having some graffiti problems. One of the solutions that somebody did come up with though is they had a local artist do an actual mural on the building and it's kind of crazy they stopped graffitiing that in the neighborhood. I don't know if there's some sort of respect there or something, but yeah. But that does seem to work.

Neal Perry 26:14

Yeah, I would say for preventative maintenance, there's not really something that you can do to, you know. Prolong the life of the paint you so you just really on the building side You should be painting some people paint every three to five years You're gonna get you know, the material is gonna last longer than that. But once you really start seeing the paint break down And become chalky you really want to paint over that or what's gonna happen is the building is really gonna take on a lot of water Especially concrete it's porous. It's gonna soak that water up So and then that's where you're start getting cracks because of the hot and cold there going to start working their way through the building. So as long as you keep up on the on the painting side of it, really you're shedding a lot of water off the building. It's not soaking so much up, you know, and then you're you're going to lessen the chances of those cracks.

Neal Perry 27:10

Yeah. As far as a maintenance side on the building? As far as like for maintenance on the building? Pressure washing?

Neal Perry 27:38

Yeah, for sure. If you're getting something on the building, pressure washing it off, I would say the pressure washing though can almost do more damage to the material that's on the building. So, I...

Neal Perry 27:51

Yeah, I wouldn't want to do it. You'll see a lot of lines on it. You know, if we're just going to wash a building, it's it's a lower PSI to get, let's say, the dirt off of it. You really don't want to blast the material that's on there, because I think if anything, you're just going to weaken what's there and then you're going to create basically lines on the building and it's going to look like it's been pressure washed and getting, you know, ready to paint or prime over it. So I've never personally. power wash the building for maintenance purposes.

Neal Perry 28:35

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Neal Perry 28:50

yeah, I mean it. Right. Yeah, I think a lot of people are doing it for, you know, aesthetics. You get good light reflectance value. I'm sure there has something to do with once you paint the building really light inside, you're using less light to light up the building. know, they have their skylights are coming through, you know, so it's reflecting light off the walls. It's just a better environment to be in if you have workers in the warehouse, you know, it looks nicer, you know, and I guess in this

Neal Perry 29:40

Right. Yeah, right, right. And I guess, you know, when owners are looking to lease out buildings, especially in a down economy, they want their building to look the best, you know, so to be attractive to tenants. So I would assume that's why they're columns above the yellow, typically to match the warehouse walls, painting the warehouse walls, getting that good light reflectance value. It probably looks bigger as well, you know? So they're just really, really trying to be attractive to a tenant to come in.

Neal Perry 30:20

No, I'm not. I can't remember what that what job that was. was that was the customer wanted those pink. But yeah, this is fun to do instead of the standard yellow.

Neal Perry 30:37

Yeah. Yeah, we used to speaking of the pink, used to have a customer that had a, it was called CABBY and they were like a, they were like a designer and we used to do a lot of pink on their buildings. I just remember that. I don't know why, but it's the pink.

Neal Perry 31:18

absolutely, yeah. Yeah, big, big range of materials and we can talk about that. I do think, you know, painting the building, you're probably is the is the best, you know, best way to add value for your money, you know, especially if you're going to turn around and sell a building. So really, when we go back to repaints, when we go repaint a building, maybe one that's for sale, I always I always like to know what's happening with the building. What's the end result? Are you selling the building? Are you holding it in your portfolio for a long time? Because really, that's going to dictate what they want to use on the building. You know, we can use a commercial grade paint. can do, you know, like one coat with the same colors that are there. You'll get your five to 10 years out of the material. It'll look great. You know, you can turn around and sell the building. It looks fantastic. Whereas people that are really holding property for a really long time and it's, you know, or their personal property, I really like to... let them know about products that are gonna last them a lot longer. Of course they're more expensive, but I feel like people that are holding properties are willing to spend that money for the longevity of the material. So you always wanna know, I at least want to know what's the end result in the property? Are you keeping it, are you selling it? Cause that can really dictate cost.

Neal Perry 32:58

so, yeah, so that's easy. That's the solids that are in the material. So that's the raw materials that go into making up the paint. That's what makes it better.

Neal Perry 33:13

Yeah, mean, can, you know, I think they'll last, you'll get a lot more life out of the material, you won't be getting the fading, the chalking, that sort of thing. I mean, I've seen buildings that haven't been painted in 30 years that look pretty decent. And I have to think that's because the older materials had a lot more.

Neal Perry 33:38

solids and better solids and probably some stuff that really shouldn't be in there that's but that's lasting them a long time

Neal Perry 33:51

I hope not, because I feel like we just got it together. Figuring out figuring out all the new all the new materials that are coming out. So, yeah, I mean, not really not off the top of my head. I don't know anything that would be coming out. That's new.

Neal Perry 34:06

You know, like I said, we're constantly in the field learning the products that are coming out and every time California changes something or mandates something and the the manufacturers have to change their product we're having to learn to reapply the product and make it look good, you know, so I'm hoping things, you know, get better and material gets better with time.

Neal Perry 34:44

Well, yeah, if you're owning a building, mean things to keep in mind if you're gonna go out and look for somebody to do the work, you know, I've really seen some horrendous stuff being done. So make sure you're just doing your due diligence, especially if you're going out to your owner of maybe one or two or three buildings, you know, and you're not some big developer. You know, just make sure you're doing your due diligence. Ask for, you know, easy stuff is to check someone's contractor's life. that's an easy one. Check their GL and work comp and ask for a couple references. Maybe go look at a couple of the buildings that work they've done. It's something they should be doing so they don't run into a problem down the road where someone's not finishing a job or you know they're not they're not really getting what they were expecting that sort of thing. So just make sure you do your due diligence you know.

Neal Perry 35:42

Sorry. Tons of things, tons of things. I feel like the painting industry especially is there's a wide array of people in the industry, meaning someone could just be a single guy working out of the back of his van all the way to you have these national companies that are doing work all around the states. So yeah, there's a wide variety of people to choose from. So just make sure you do a little due diligence before you have someone come out and give you estimates. minutes.

Neal Perry 36:26

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Neal Perry 36:49

Yeah, for sure. Yep, yeah, I feel like it's gonna be strong. I'm already seeing developers testing the waters with numbers on projects.